Welcome, welcome all. Now that you've enjoyed the lion fight with your togas in the coliseum of death, come and join our little republic Council discussing morality! We have here the classic debate, broken down more scientifically and theologically than behaviorally, of Hobbes Vs. Locke. Is man naturally good or are our tendencies immoral?
Following Shannon's example of giving a little background before we begin, I am a Catholic who is proud and respective of her roots and yet frustrated by and defiant of some Catholic teachings. Therefore, I herald Catholicism, like the Bible, as a good foundation for my own personal, love-centered, and humanistic religion to grow from but choose to be classified as an "LSV" -- Liberated Spiritual Voyager.
To provide some spicy contrast, Shannon is a Mormon, or member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There could be a sitcom about our clashing beliefs on some matters, but on the whole, we've even more cherished agreements on life and God as well that I hope you will find as fascinating to read as it was to discuss.
I like the deeper conversations. Shannon knows it. So stay tuned and you may witness more epicly controversial, personal topics tackled by these two very different-thinking yet equally intelligent and good-looking philosophers.
And by the way...I've always been for Locke.
**This is primarily a response to my latest blog post, Measuring the East from the West, published on 9/23/2012
http://sheamegale.weebly.com/1/post/2012/09/measuring-the-east-to-the-west.html. In specifics, the paragraph we are scrutinizing is as follows:
"So how do you measure the east from the west? How do we measure humanity's faults with humanity's goodness? This is what the scripture is saying. You can't. Because they are not compatible. They do not coexist in the same realm. And while I do believe there is darkness in all of us -- a darkness that we almost need to understand how we feel about it in the world -- we are 100% meant for goodness. We are simply pieces of love, encased by the body. Humanity is a virtue that we ARE. Humanity doesn't have faults. Humanity has sin." **
I disagree that we are 100 percent good though
Perhaps I should amend what I said
I do believe there is darkness in all of us.
Allow me to edit...
also made a typo in the third para...
*scurries to weebly*
"The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man, and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child: submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love..."
Yeah, disagree with that.
I definitely disagree.
So totally comment
you disagree with me?
I have not fully explained myself, however
Shall we do this here of on Council or on
the blog post?
The quote is only
one part of it. It tells of the carnal side of man...the imperfections we all have
So our instincts are wrong.
The "natural man"
being our own rather bullheaded tendency to do whatever we please regardless of what is right
SOME of our instincts are wrong
How can our instincts be wrong??? God
We are also children of God,
with the potential, indeed the purpose, of becoming like him
I totally agree with you that we are divine.
I have said it before and I'll say it again. Sometimes I do believe we are not meant to be perfect.
We are meant for unimaginable glory.
It isn't that we aren't meant to be perfect.
It's just that perfection is unattainable in this life.
So, I suppose it depends on your definition of humanity.
And yet I don't believe that we will be playing harps and giving
up curse words and being godly in the next life. We are human. It is an entirely
different divine. We are just as complex and incredible as the Creator because
we are pieces of him. But we are individual of Him too.
Humanity, as the great glob of people and everything we
do....definitely not 100% goodness.
You misunderstood my blog post
I'm giving you my take on it. Let me give the other definition as i see it
Just like separating the east from the west, I was separating
our humanity and its transgressions from true identity and sin.
The other definition of humanity, the one that you are presumably using, IS our godly tendencies...our love, compassion, brotherly (sisterly) kindness
In short, our divinity as children of God. That
which sets us apart from other creatures.
So back to what you were saying of "natural man" being an "enemy
of God," which I find so inaccurate, what in particular are you referring to?
What is your definition of man's carnal offenses?
As to heaven..I agree and disagree. I don't think we'll be using curse words. I think we ARE meant to give up our imperfections. I think we are meant for higher things.
Giving up our imperfections doesn't mean giving up our unique
I just think some of those imperfections are part of who we are.
Imperfections and evils are two very different things.
The natural man being our selfish desires. The ungodlike tendencies that we are tempted into choosing.
Elucidate on these imperfections.
I don't mean that we'll be instantly
transformed into perfect beings when we die.
You seem to have a very poetic stance on this. Which is great.
But some of our imperfections are sin. Some are not. I'm not sure what you mean.
So what you mean is, sin is not who we are. It
is something we sometimes succumb to. Which i basically agree with.
And yet did God not program those desires
into us? We desire love, success, creativity, influence, respect, and yes, sex. And all of those are good things. It's just when we abuse them that it is wrong. Imperfections - our possssion of inner darkness, the ability to feel it and fear it, explore and yet fight it. Our sense of individualism from God while at the same time CHOOSING to love him and not giving up our own wills to obience to him. I also think our tangible abilities are a huge part of humanity. As I saidm the brush of a hand, squeeze of a stranger, physical passion with our romantic soul mates. I' don't believe that it all washes away when we die and I if course don't classify those as imperfections, I was just adding that point in reference to your "carnal man"
Yes on that last part.
I suppose it is poetic in a way. But the more I
look at it, the more humanity seems to be just that.
Yes and no. God gave us ourselves, our divine nature and
desires. He sent us to Earth at least in part for us to gain physical bodies.
But He also gave us agency--the freedom to choose for ourselves what we will do here. And don't forget that there is another who seeks to twist the good desires that God has given us for his own ends.
And that gift of God's is the one I am greatly in praise of Him
for -- free will.
Yes. But I refuse to believe that everything--anything--we do with that free will is right.
Of course not. But again, you must seperate imperfections from evils.
Carnal just means wicked, basically.
Wrong actions we take.
Carnal, in my English definition, means bodily.
Sin is evil. To commit sin doesn't mean we're evil. Fortunately, we can repent
of it, pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and try again. to use our agency
I was using a more general definition. Although many of the
desires that Satan twists do have to do with our physical bodies.
Love turned to lust, for instance.
Which is what? What is lust exactly?
Because it cannot be just attraction.
So following what we were saying about
imperfections: that is why I don't like the question "Won't you accept me for
who I am?" No. I don't want to. I don't want you to accept me for who I am. I
want us both to become better. Because we both can be so much more than we are now. We are children of God.
Is it dehumanizing and degrading the person behind the body because you're ONLY interested in the body? Yes. THat is wrong. But attraction -- even intense
attraction -- is not.
Exactly. You said it better than I could.
Attraction as part of real love---godly love---is good.
We cal ALL improve. But you say that looking through one lens, when to someone else, looking through another lens, they ARE perfect as they are. To love someone deeply is to love their imperfections too.
Yes. Even intense attraction.
"You don't love someone because they're
beautiful, they're beautiful because you love them."
Love them with their imperfections, perhaps. But don't love
whatever sin they are struggling with. We all struggle with many things.
Of course we do. We can all improve. But I
still often think we are not meant to be your definition of *perfect.*
I read something the other day..."Thank
heaven that love does not wait for beauty. Human love is like a flowing river,
bringing beauty with it."
What is my definition of perfect?
I love that thought. But I don't get the river similie lol
I didn't make it up lol.
Nor did I state it exactly as the
Being exactly like God. Laying down some of the parts of us that make us human, like I was explaining when I was defining the difference between imperfection and evil.
You mean being clones.
You don't have to sin to be unique, is what I'm saying.
I never said sin makes you unique
(In fact, we'd be unique if we didn't sin, haha)
Does this conclude the Council?
Ah, yes. I remember, I was going to comment more on that. I believe that we are meant to give up our wills to Him. If he is the ultimate good, and we are meant to be like Him, can we be like Him if we cling to anything less than good?
:) it's still on :)
Give up our wills?
Well, everything we
want is not good. I want to eat cookies for lunch every day. If I give up that
particular wish in favor of God's will that i take care of myself, I'll be
That is why God gave us wills in the first place. To test us, yes, but He wants us to love him of our own choosing. It's live falling in love with a unique, incredible, individual being as opposed to slipping he or she love potion and making them.
like** not live
Bringing our wills into alignment with God's will make us
happier. He has a much broader perspective than us.
God gave us wills to see if we would choose Him.
Choose to let him direct our lives.
In short, give up our short-term wants to His eternal plan for us.
We are on the same side, so our wills should certainly collaborate. But to give up to Him entirely is giving up the individual being, the free warriors of light
that we are.
We are meant to be free. God knew that when he breathed life into us, I believe.
We all have different personalities and preferences. Different looks. Different
gifts. Different thoughts. That's not going to change. But we can have better
actions, and if anything, improve our unique human value.
But things that you think make you free often imprison you more.
You are absolutely right on the first part,
and the second part is intriguing and I look forward to thinking about that
It's like someone asking, don't you feel restricted because you aren't allowed to drink alcohol? Well no. For a couple of reasons. First of all, I CHOOSE not to drink alcohol. And secondly, it leaves me a lot more free than someone who is an addict, who has lost their will almost entirely to their body's desire for it.
Much, I'm sure, as you are looking
forward to pondering my comment about not meaning to be perfect
Well of course. But alcohol is truly evil to
us if it is abused.
Following God's will makes us free. Following Satan's will only chains us down.
Having free wills of our OWN is not *evil*
Okay, but following is different that GIVING UP TO.
Plus, if I feel like I am living right by God
in my heart, which I do, then I already am trying to and want to live by His
will. I am and I do.
God gave us agency so we would have free wills of our own. Quite the opposite of Lucifer's plan, in fact.
And Lucifer is gonna get creamed by God :) if not already has.
Good! But the issue is justifying sin by saying "God means for me to have my own free will."
You bring up a good point.
We know who's gonna win. Why are we still
deciding who's team we'll be on?!
I really think the huge conflicting factor here is my separating sin from imperfection.
:) Come on, my sharkish friend. You KNOW I NEVER condone sin. You and I just sometimes have different opinions on what is sin.
Here's a question. Your parents are pretty successful, right? Do they want you to be any less successful?
No, but they want me to follow my heart and find the success that makes ME feel successful. Not to take over their business or whatnot.
The whole Bible issue.
Someday you and I are gonna go through that line by line.
LOL it'll never resolve x)
Yes. God created us as His unique sons
and daughters. Each wonderful, and each different. No two alike, like delicate
and amazing snowflakes. He wants us all to be as happy as He is.
And I love him with every inch of my being because of that.
Yes. We agree on what's most important. To quote some song lyrics, "God is great, and beer is good, and..." okay, never mind. But we do agree on the "God is great" part.
And we love Him. And from Him stems our love for the rest of humanity.
The painter and the painting.
I'm not sure your being can be measured in inches, Shea I don't think you'd fit on a yardstick.
Ugh, you're right. We're talking milimeters.
never mind. It's' late. Save it for next Council?
this one's gonna rock.